A Conversation with Theo Croker & Dee Dee Bridgewater – HuffPost 6.13.14

Mike Ragogna: Can we start at the beginning where Theo meets Dee Dee forAfro Physicist?

Theo Croker: Dee Dee and I met in Shanghai in 2009 at a jazz festival. I was playing in a big band behind her. We met in person and proceeded to link up, go to lunch and hang out, and I kind of became her guide to the city while she was there. After the show, I had a show at one of the sponsoring venues with my band and Dee Dee came down and sat in. We kind of stayed in touch after that. That was the start of it.

MR: Theo, this is a different kind of album for you. What was the creative process?

TC: The creative process… I think it all got sparked when Dee Dee said we weren’t not gonna make a jazz record.

Dee Dee Bridgewater: I’d heard Theo playing in all kinds of different musical genres, and I just didn’t want to make yet another straight-ahead jazz album. I knew he was doing all kinds of music, I knew he had some great compositions and I thought, “This should be the way to go.” His tastes are eclectic and his music reflects his tastes and I liked it.

MR: Theo, as far as writing the songs, how did it work?

TC: Creatively, when I was living abroad in Shanghai, there seemed to be a wider category of what they considered jazz. It encompassed a lot of things that, maybe here, we would have more categories for, like R&B or hip-hop. There, all of that was just considered jazz. So I think it allowed me to open up my mind a little bit, and start to not really worry about what style of music I was trying to play. And I think was the first step to how this project became the way it is; how creatively we started to deal with these different genres, grooves and influences. Really just learning to open up and hear things differently and blend them together to create the Afro Physicist sound.

MR: Jazz has always been an evolving art form, but now more than ever it seems to embrace so much more, even traditionally. Does that feel like you really weren’t confined by whatever the definition of jazz is these days?

TC: Yes. That’s exactly right. That’s what it turned in to. Especially when I was living in a place where nobody really spent a lot of time trying to define what you’re doing musically; they just like it or they don’t like it. I think nowadays, jazz has become such a broad meaning, and I think that’s a good thing because it’s getting back to being about music and whether it’s good or not, and whether people connect with it or not. I think that’s more important than what we label it.

MR: Dee Dee, what attracted you to Theo’s music, and what drew you to want to do a project with him this extensively?

DDB: I was attracted to several elements of Theo. I was very impressed by his entrepreneurship and the fact that he’d picked up and moved all the way to Shanghai. I could really appreciate having moved out of the United States, but for someone to move to Asia and to learn the language and be aware of the culture was most impressive. That’s not a place where you would imagine a young musician moving to. So there was that. I love Theo’s sound. I love the trumpet due to my father being a trumpet player, and hearing that instrument a lot. All of my jazz heroes and my first husband were trumpet players. I think of my voice as a trumpet. So when I heard Theo, his sound spoke to me. The way he played his horn, that he didn’t feel the need to be brassy and impress with high notes or loudness. I really appreciated that. I thought, “Here’s a young man who’s sure about his sound, about his instrument,” and I liked that he was playing in different vernaculars, too. I heard him in different settings and just loved that. It spoke to me. I felt like I was dealing with a kindred spirit. I’m very eclectic and that’s my musical choice–even though I may not do that on stage because of my reputation and what people expect to hear from me. But since working with Theo, I’m doing all kinds of other stuff. 8:57 Everything about Theo spoke to me, even his aesthetics; his culinary tastes, his fashion tastes. Everything. I feel like Theo is a child of mine. It’s very confusing; even my grandchildren don’t understand what this relationship is. My oldest daughter manages him. I don’t know, he’s become part of my family. It’s a little more than just the manager/producer thing. He’s part of our family and I have Theo’s band as my band this summer.

MR: Theo, who were your influences? Was Miles Davis one of them?

TC: Yeah, Miles was definitely an influence. He’s eclectic, he’s ever-evolving. He never goes backwards. I’ve read his book and have studied him closely as a person. He’s definitely an influence, somebody that was always himself. Once he became himself he remained himself through good and bad, which I really admire. Another person who’s an influence musically is Fela Kuti on the same vibe. I really like how he went from the highlife African music, and then developed his own sound with his Egypt 70 through being influenced by James Browne and really defining the Afrobeat genre with Tony Allen; and having a message in his music. I’m really influenced by that. And of course, all the great trumpet players; Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard… and even the young ones, Roy Hargrove, Nicholas Payton, Wynton Marsalis. I’m influenced by everything.

MR: I’d throw in Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson.

TC: [laughs] Certainly Stevie’s a huge influence. I think that some of the general audience–people who hear Stevie songs on the radio–don’t necessarily get how deep some of it is, musically, and even technically. Stevie’s like the ultimate jazz musician; there’s so much to deal with in one of his songs. You can spend years learning a Stevie song, but it’s so accessible to people, yet they’re so packed. A lot of times there are two or three drum grooves over one track.

MR: Your re-invention of “I Can’t Help It” was a very clever way to approach it.

DDB: That’s Theo’s arrangement. All of the arrangements on the CDs are Theo’s, and you’ve got all of his original compositions. That’s something else I really love about Theo. In my opinion he’s a wonderful arranger. Very talented, and I’ve asked him to do some arrangements on CDs I’ve always loved. So we do that now in our new repertoire. I thought that arrangement on “I Can’t Help It’ was so slick; throwing in the kind of Latin groove, and it had such a sophistication to it. And it’s all basically Stevie. You really get the sense of the jazz, and I think that Theo’s arrangement brought that out.

MR: And your vocals!

DDB: Yeah, well, that’s just the way I sing. I listen to my voice sometimes and I think, “What a weird voice.” I find it weird sometimes, but when I listen to an arrangement, I try to figure out what the best vocal sound it is that I can bring to that arrangement to enhance the overall arrangement. That song for me wasn’t easy. The chorus section is kind of fast, so if you want to get all the lyrics in, you have to syncopate the notes a certain way and the words a certain way. It’s a clever little challenge, and I’ve worked it out, but in the beginning it was difficult. And everybody says it’s a Nancy Wilson song.

MR: Dee Dee, it sounds like there’s a familial blend with you singing on the tracks.

TC: Dee Dee’s and my relationship is very organic and it developed naturally. For the first two years of us knowing each other, I would see her in Shanghai, or I would find her if I was in the same country and she was performing there, and I’d get on the train on an off day and hang out with her. It wasn’t overnight. We’ve been kind of working on the project for four or five years.

DDB: Emotionally and physically. This baby took three years. I produced it with my own funds, and then we had to shop a deal. I have a distribution deal with Universal and they turned it down, they weren’t interested. Then we talked to different labels, and Wulf Müller, who I’ve been working with for years at Universal–he’s been my confidante and also was a consultant after he left–was asked to work with OKeh Records when they were coming together. So he told me about it, and after everything was set up, he said, “Do you want to present your Theo Croker project to OKeh?” I said yes, and so I now have a second distribution deal with OKeh to distribute DDB Records, and Theo is on DDB Records. It’s lovely

MR: What do you both see as far as the future and where you’re taking this? Are you going to collaborate again, and where are your solo careers going?

DDB: Well let me answer collaboratively. I know Theo’s working on new material and recording demoes. I of course would love to continue to work with Theo; I think we have a great musical relationship and a great understanding of each other, so I hope that this is going to grow. However, let me just say that, as a producer, I feel my role is to step back and out of the picture if that’s what an artist needs to move forward. My role as a producer is simply to help the artist realize their musical goals. Anytime that Theo doesn’t feel that I’m the one for him, I will push him and say “You need to go someplace else, you need to get somebody else. I will still be behind it in terms of the actual production of it.” And maybe Theo will want to produce himself, or co-produce. But everything’s open with us in that end.

TC: We don’t disillusion each other. I see myself going in lots of different directions, and I’m sure many of them will be with Dee Dee and some of them won’t be. Dee Dee’s very clear about what she’s down with and what she’s not down with. So that makes it easy, and we don’t have those hard feelings; we’re like family. But also I’m very happy to be a part of Dee Dee’s working band. That’s something every musician kind of hopes for, to be in a band of someone who’s a legend, who’s been around a long time and been in the business, so you learn everything about traveling, touring, performing; everything about music. Really, when I’m in Dee Dee’s band, I may contribute compositions and arrangements, but every show’s a learning process for me, so I’m really happy to be a part of that, and I hope to stay a part of that as long as possible.

MR: That’s beautiful.

DDB: At my age, Theo could be my child; he could be my grandchild! [laughs] But he could certainly be my child, and with most young musicians I just think of them as my children. It’s just lovely to share the stage with your children. I’d share the stage with my second daughter China, and I just love stepping back and allowing the youth to take front and center. I’m an old broad, I’ve been out there a long time, so I don’t need the accolades. I’m there to push somebody and then I step back. I’m there to help bring focus to the young person that I think deserves the attention. And I want people to understand that. I love working with Theo, I love working with his working band, with Irwin Hall, little Michael King, Eric Wheeler, Kassa Overall, etc. These are all young guys. I like sitting with them and listening to them talking about where they hear the music coming from. I like taking notes. I like being fed new and fresh ideas and new energy. I like that these gentlemen are not afraid to step outside of jazz, per se. I love that.

TC: And you have to be careful around Dee Dee because Dee Dee soaks up everything, and will twist it and put it out so fast; you start playing two notes, and Dee Dee takes those two and turns it into five and you’re like, “Oh.” Sometimes we look at each other like, “Uh-oh, we set her off, now we gotta follow her.” You just need a slight nudge sometimes, and she takes you to the moon. We have these looks on stage sometimes where we give her a nudge and then we’re taken on a ride. It’s amazing.

DDB: Mike, It’s so much fun.

MR: What advice do you have for new artists?

DDB: My advice, generally, is to learn as much as you can about your craft. Learn as much as you can about the business of your craft. And don’t be afraid and don’t compromise what you believe in as your music or your art. Because if you’re going to go down with a sinking ship, it might as well be your ship that you built, that you nurtured and that you believe in, instead of going down for something that somebody’s told you to do. That’s horrible. So go down with a fight and always keep fighting, and never accept “No.” That’s what I say.

TC: Mine is kind of on the same line: really learn your craft. I don’t mean just observe it. There’s so much information about music and how it works, and a lot of young people overlook that, but you really have to develop your craft and decide that you’re going to stick with this and continue to develop it. I really see Dee Dee and myself serving the music more than we serve ourselves. It’s come to us and it has a calling. You really have to have a lot of integrity and study and learn and understand what the music is and is about so that you can reach the highest level artistically. The other is to be yourself, as Dee Dee said. I want to go out on my spaceship, not somebody else’s and saying “Aye aye, sir.” If I go down, or up, it’s my ship. I think that’s important. For me there’s no end in sight for music and me.

Transcribed by Emily Fotis