A Conversation with Dave Grusin – HuffPost 9.26.12

Mike Ragogna: Hello, Dave!

Dave Grusin: How are you, man? It’s great to meet you and talk to you, Michael. I’m really impressed that your radio station is running on solar power, that’s incredible.

MR: Thanks, Dave. I appreciate. And GRP ran on digital power! Since this is the 30th anniversary celebration of GRP, the digital master company, let’s go into its history, maybe beginning with the partnership between you and Larry Rosen?

DG: Yes, that predated the recording thing by quite a few years. If anybody remembers, back in the sixties, there was and is a singer named Andy Williams. I was a music director for Andy, and Larry was a nineteen-year-old drummer. When I finally talked Andy into letting us take a drummer along, it was Larry, so that’s when I met him. He was playing with something called The Newport Youth Band, which was an incredible all-star young band affiliated with the Newport Jazz Festival. Anyway, I got him to go on the road with us and we played a lot of gigs together in those days, and quite a few years later, we formed a production company to produce albums. Our first artist was a guitar player named Earl Klugh, and this was not for GRP, this was for another label, but it was the first time Larry and I worked together strictly as a production team. It was so much fun that from there, we got involved with a lot of young artists like this. One time, Larry was on an airplane and Clive Davis was on the plane. Larry, being the kind of Type A he is, went up to Clive and said, “We have a production company and you ought to sign us to produce new artists for your label.” So that was how that started, in terms of the record company.

MR: So GRP came through Arista for a while.

DG: Yeah.

MR: And from there, you moved to MCA?

DG: Yes. Well, we went independent for a while and MCA turned out to be the prime distributor for us when we were independent. They finally said, “Why are we doing it this way? We ought to own you guys,” so we actually sold the label to MCA and continued to work with them for a number of years.

MR: Yes and you ended up being their primary jazz label.

DG: That’s right. We kind of supervised the other jazz labels they had, like Verve and Decca Jazz and some of the older things as well. But yes, we were the jazz deal at that time, so we were the only game in town over there.

MR: Now, it might have been evolving on its own anyway, but GRP’s identity has always been with smooth jazz over the years, establishing the concept of “smooth jazz” with everyone.

DG: Yeah. You know, there’s a term everybody uses for a lot of different genres of music called “fusion,” and in the early days of GRP, our fusion direction–if you took the definition of the fusion of jazz and whatever other genre–that would be R&B or what became urban music. That was how we kind of got it rolling, and then the other aspect of fusion was the stuff Chick Corea was doing, that kind of high-energy, high tech, unbelievable piano playing and writing and so forth. That was part of the mix as well, and any kind of pop fusion that was going on at the time. I’m thinking about an artist we signed named Angela Bofill, that became known as “smooth jazz,” but we didn’t invent the term. In fact, I hate the term. But that’s how it ended up being called that. There was a heavy, pure pop market and a pure R&B market and then there was the fusion market that tried to mix jazz into these other genres that became jazz-fusion or smooth jazz.

MR: The term is almost a derogatory one at this point in the same way that one would say “singer-songwriter,” and the like, with corresponding stereotypes. But when you look at the production values of what was going on in the eighties — a lot of the new synthesizers, the emulator, all those new samplers — I have a feeling that the jazz of the time embraced those sonics to become more marketable, even aiming at being a form of pop since everyone else was successful using them. Maybe that’s how we ended up with “smooth jazz”?
DG: Yeah, that’s a very good analysis, I think. That’s absolutely right. It took a number of years. It wasn’t a one-shot deal, and it took a number of years for it to develop into that point, but marketing people and people in the business — almost any kind of business — they love titles they can grab a hold of and categorize. It makes it simple for them to talk to people about what they’re doing and what they’re selling. So I think that was part of it, and the sudden advent of smooth jazz radio stations and so forth in those years was incredible. It seriously was a good thing for us commercially. There was an outlet for us to get these kinds of records out and have a home for them in some ways.

MR: Yeah, and also, when you look at a music entity like Windham Hill, it had a clear identity. Theirs was new age, but it took on the sounds and the sonic currency of what was going on at the time as well, only in the realm of acoustic instruments, at least in the beginning.

DG: Yes, exactly.

MR: But speaking of marketing, there’s a catchphrase that’s associated with GRP — “The Digital Master Company.”

DG: Right. That was another Larry Rosen stroke of brilliance. For some reason, in the beginning of CDs, there wasn’t a lot of capacity in terms of pressing, at least in this country, so most of the artists who got the first shot at these things were big names like Barbra Streisand and big-selling artists at major label companies. We didn’t have any of those kinds of restrictions because we weren’t a major label. We found that everything we released, at a certain point, was in the digital format, and I’d say one of the advantages we had was about a year and a half jump in that category of having everything released digitally on the major labels, so we sort of had a marketplace to ourselves for a while, if I could say it that way.

MR: Yeah, yeah. Let’s go into some of the artists on your label. One of my favorites is David Benoit, plus you had Dianne Schuur, Dave Valentin, Larry Carlton, Don Grusin, The Brecker Brothers, The Rippingtons, George Benson, and of course, one of my favorite events was when you guys did The GRP All-Stars and everybody jumped-in.

DG: Yeah.

MR: With this roster of artists I guess the obvious question is how did it function as a company? Everybody seemed to guest on each other’s records from time to time, so it’s almost like you guys had — I don’t want to say a “Brill Building” paradigm — but at least some of that creative atmosphere.

DG: You’re right. There was another label during that time called CTI, Creed Taylor’s record label, and they did a similar thing in terms of having a lot of people in their stables signed to the label on each other’s albums. I think, still, it was a very productive kind of format in the sense that it gave everybody a lot of exposure, not only on their own releases, but as guests on everybody else’s.

MR: Right, and look at the caliber of these players. You guys were on the lookout for talent and were like an oasis for these musicians. Yes, CTI also had their identity, and CTI may have actually been a more progressive or “fusion” label than you guys were. But GRP’s roster is so impressive that I’m not sure there’s a jazz label, besides maybe Concord, that rivals or comes close to what you guys created for the longest time.

DG: Yeah, we were very fortunate. One secret I’ll let you in on is that when we were starting, we had no money to make records with, so everything was kind of on a budget basis, and we found that the people we could afford were young artists that didn’t have a deal at all, so they were willing to come and make records for probably not what a George Benson would require in terms of signing to a label contract. That’s how we got underway. You mentioned Valentin, who was one of the first guys, and I think he was the one who recommended Angela Bofill to us, who, for our little label, was kind of a pop diva-type star. When I think back about how all of that worked, I think a lot of it was almost like having a school that we would have these graduates from and then the alumni, if you will, would recommend other people from the same ballpark. It was just a fabulous way of getting to know and record some of these young artists.

MR: Yeah, and I imagine some of the artists who would be mentors would have been Tom Scott, Patti Austin… You inherited Spyro Gyra from MCA, right?

DG: Yeah, and we never got involved with production of Spyro Gyra. They had their thing rolling and they were all doing it. They were underway. We kind of ended up with them in a supervisory position, kind of as executive producers, but it wasn’t any hands on stuff with them. They had their own thing going.

MR: All right. I want to get into Dave Grusin the artist and Dave Grusin the arranger, pianist, et cetera. You have an amazing catalog yourself, sir, and I think that most people would be amazed to find out just what projects you’ve been behind. For instance, I think everybody knows the classic from Tootsie, “It Might Be You.”

DG: Yeah.

MR: What’s the backstory?

DG: The backstory in a lot of these things, particularly the film stuff, seems to happen by accident, for instance, Tootsie. I did the score for my old friend Sydney Pollack who I’d done a lot of films with and he thought maybe we should have a song. He was seriously interested in finding songwriters. You can’t see me, but I’m putting quotes around “songwriters” here. I’m definitely not a “songwriter,” per se, but I have written quite a few songs over the years, mostly affiliated with films. He was such a team player and he had everybody on the same page including me about who we ought to get to write a song. In those days, there was a young whippersnapper, a talented kid named David Foster who was just tearing it up with a lot of different acts, and we decided he was the guy. He had an agent named Irving Azoff, who was legendary and still around and still hitting it hard. The lyric would be written by Boz Scaggs, so that was the attempt at getting a song for the film. Then time went by, and these guys were so busy doing all of their stuff they didn’t get around to jumping on this song assignment for Sydney, and he got very worried. He said, “I think we ought to have a backup plan here. What if these guys don’t get it done,” and I said, “Well, what does that mean?” He said, “Well, why don’t you and Alan and Marilyn Bergman…,” we were all close friends, “…write a tune for this film?” So we did, and when I say the eleventh hour, it was probably within a week of when we were going to score this thing. Of course, we had no idea if Sydney would even like the idea, but he did, and I think there was enough of a panic to get it done that that’s what ended up in the film.

MR: It’s wonderful. That’s a great story. And how about The Graduate, that also has all that Simon & Garfunkel music?

DG: Oh wow, yeah.

MR: That must be one of your favorites, right?

DG: Well, it was my first. I don’t know what the category is for these things; it was kind of a pop music score, and it was one of the first ones and one of the most successful ones, and when I think back about what happened right after The Graduate was a success, everybody in the business was trying to make a song score. No serious question about where they got the idea for that. It was such a big hit for Mike Nichols, but when I think back, I keep remembering that usually, there’s only one time something like that happens and everything you hope will turn out the same way, but there’s only one original at any given time. That’s not to say that there weren’t other song scores done, there were a lot of them done, and a lot of good ones, but that was sort of the lead-off.

MR: That’s the earliest one that I can remember. On the other hand, you have had many soundtracks out there to various movies and television series. You wrote the theme songs to things like Dan August, It Takes A Thief, Maude, and a couple of my favorites — Good Times and Baretta. St. Elsewhere was rerecorded buy you during your GRP run of Dave Grusin albums. And you’ve got The Wild, Wild West, The Girl From U.N.C.L.E., one of the TV movies from the Columbo block — that was one of those six-week runs, right?

DG: That’s right, yeah.

MR: You even did the theme song to One Life To Live.

DG: Uh-huh!

MR: I think I’d like a further television recap before we go to your movies.

DG: Well, you got most of them. The ones I can remember at least. You guys may not know this, but my first television chance was when I was at a point where I would do anything. I would write any kind of score I could just for the benefit of doing film work. So back in the sixties, I got a chance to write the score — I don’t think I did the themes — for something called The Flying Nun.

MR: Oh, my God! You did The Flying Nun?

DG: With Sally Fields, yes.

MR: Oh, my God, so to speak, of course.

DG: [laughs] And then there was another one called The Farmer’s Daughter, with Inger Stevens who was a knockout girl. So I got my feet wet in terms of working in the film area, per se. I’m talking about working with film as opposed to television tape and so forth. That was my trial by fire in those days. And right after that, Bud Yorkin and Norman Lear — who were executive producers of The Andy Williams Show, when I was first there — had done a film called Divorce, American Style, and they called me and asked me if I had any interest in doing this score. I would die to do the score for anything, so they really kind of gave me that shot that everybody needs before anybody knows who you are; you can’t get arrested in the business when you haven’t done anything. But once you’ve done something, then maybe you’re on your way, maybe you’re not, but at least you had a shot at it. So they’re the ones that gave me that first opportunity and I’ll always be grateful for that. I can’t tell you enough how valuable that is to a writer.

MR: And I also want to throw out there that Norman Lear is one of the owners of the biggest jazz conglomerates right now, Concord, which I mentioned earlier.

DG: It just boggles my mind about this six degrees of separation! I’ve known Norman since the old Andy Williams days and I’ve watched him through the years. He gave me the shot to do Maude and Good Times. When you look back and say, “Who’s responsible for my being able to do these things?” it’s just an amazing list and the longer you live, the longer the list goes.

MR: It’s got to be very fulfilling to be a part of that, when you see the successful career of an artist you’ve worked with years later, to know that you had some sort of good mentoring or an effect or help pushing those along. I bet there’s almost no better feeling than that.

DG: Absolutely right. It’s incredible, particularly in a business like this where there’s no sort of ground rules. Things happen and if you happen to be there at the right time, you’re on your way.

MR: Speaking of being on your way, we were on our way to talking about your movies. You’ve had so many Oscar nominations, Grammy nominations, Golden Globe nominations; you’re a winner for Best Original Score of The Milagro Beanfield War. You also won Best Album of Original Instrumental Music Written for Motion Picture or Television for The Fabulous Baker Boys. What a great sleeper movie that was, huh?
DG: Still one of my best experiences.

MR: You got Grammys for “Bess You Is My Woman/I Loves You Porgy,” “Mood Indigo”…it just goes on and on. You’ve also worked with all sorts of iconic artists such as Paul Simon and James Taylor.

DG: I’m still working with James, as a matter of fact. We just finished a little project now.

MR: Back to the movies. You’ve worked on The Champ, The Firm, Reds, Heaven Can Wait; we mentioned Tootsie, and there’s On Golden Pond, which was one of your most touching scores. What are your thoughts on your movie scoring career?

DG: Well, it’s amazing. As I say, these things happen sort of without you knowing they’re happening. What you’re thinking about at a certain point when you start to work a lot is not how appreciative you are of what’s going on with your life, you’re just worried about if you’re going to finish this next score in time or if you’re going to get the writing done in time to make the recording day. You get into habits like that and mindsets, and so the years go by and you don’t have a full appreciation of all the great stuff that’s happening to you and how lucky you are to be doing this stuff, until the time comes when you’re no longer first call. You’re like an antique, and maybe it’s time to retire or hang it up, and there are a lot of new directors and new producers who know what they want to do and they have their favorite people. It’s kind of a natural evolution of when you have to move on. So that can be…”devastating” is too big a word for it, but it can be irritating to think, “Why aren’t I doing all this stuff that sort of used to happen automatically?” The truth is, it’s like every other industry. There are a few exceptions. Walter Cronkite is one, but there seems to be a retirement time for a lot of people. People have said to me, “So have you retired?” I don’t know if I’m retired or just out of work. If anybody calls, I’m not retired. I’ve managed to adjust my life to continue to deal with music on any basis.

MR: Beautiful. Oh, I skipped over your work on The Goonies, which I think every kid has seen or owned in their life at one time or another.

DG: All the ones I know. That’s incredible, how many people emerge that I meet, who, that’s the first thing that they think of is The Goonies. That’s how I identify how old everybody is. My daughter was just the right age when that came out and she’s watched it I don’t know how many hundreds of times, and all her friends as well.

MR: And speaking of kids movies, you did the scores to one of my all-time favorite, not-so-underground “underground” movies, My Bodyguard.

DG: Oh, wow! Nobody really mentions that. I don’t know how many people actually saw that film.

MR: Yeah, it’s unfortunate because that was a beautiful little movie.

DG: It was. It was very nice. Very nice.

MR: It had Martin Mull, and wasn’t it Ruth Gordon’s last performance?

DG: I think it was, yeah. I think it was Ruth’s swan song.

MR: All right, I have a traditional question for you wonderful, high-falootin’ industry moguls. Well, everyone, really. What advice do you have for new artists?

DG: You’re talking about musicians in general, or film people?

MR: Let’s talk about music.

DG: Yeah, music in general. Here’s what I believe: There are no magic beans here to find. If you’re serious about it and if you love it enough, you don’t have anything to worry about because you’ll find a way to happen. It may not be the ideal way to make a living, but as I say, if you’re serious about music, that’s not going to be your first consideration anyway. You’re going to be thinking about how you can spend your time making music. It may sound like a platitude of some kind, but I mean it, because there’s nobody I know who’s a good musician who would be doing anything if they weren’t making a living with it. It’s just what they do. I wrestle with this all the time, too. “If I am what I do, and I’m not doing anything, who am I?” If you’re a musician, I don’t think you have to worry about that. If you’re a true musician and truly in love with the form, you’re going to find a way to make it work. As I say, making it work as opposed to making a living at it may be a little more difficult, but even that’s going to happen if you’re serious about it. So I guess my long-winded advice isn’t even advice. It’s “Don’t worry. Don’t worry, be happy,” to quote Bobby McFerrin. I think it’s going to work for you and I wouldn’t say this if I hadn’t gone through this with countless friends and young people that I’ve known over the years. I really believe all of that.

MR: Nice. All right, we’ll tail down this interview now, but I’m kind of sad because it’s like I’m looking at half of the pop culture knowledge that I have. You’ve been associated with so much of it. If you had told me that you had been associated with The Carpenters, Battlestar Galactica, The Partridge Family, Lost In Space, and The 5th Dimension, I’d be like, “Okay, I’m done.”

DG: It would have been complete!

MR: Well, closer, anyway. [laughs] Dave, I really appreciate your time and thank you very much for coming to us and giving us your time, as well as saying those nice words about solar power in the beginning.

DG: Well, listen, we’re heavy environmentalists. I’ve been on the board of American Rivers and we spend a lot of time supporting environmental causes, and we need to keep it going. I know it’s in serious danger on a national level of everyone worried about tax credits as opposed to saving the planet, but I’m truly impressed when I hear that somebody’s actually using it like it ought to be used, so thank you.

MR: Wonderfully said, and thank you again.

MR: Wait, we didn’t even talk about Harlequin.

DG: Yeah, we didn’t talk about the whole Brazilian thing, which is our secret second country of all the musicians who were born at a certain time and lived through the beginnings of Bossa Nova and so forth. But Harlequin… My good buddy Lee Ritenour and I are going in to play The Blue Note in New York for a week in a couple weeks, so come and see us there, anybody.

MR: Dave, thank you for your time, I really, really appreciate it.

DG: Absolutely. My pleasure, thank you.

Transcribed by Galen Hawthorne